Curse

White Hair · Jul 03, 2005, 02:16 AM // 02:16

PvP people need to get their head out of their asses and stop complaining. You can get a character from lvl 1 to lvl 20 and cap all the elites over the friggin weekend.

arredondo · Jul 03, 2005, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

You're screaming bloody murder about how unlocking skills violates every principle of serious competition...but you're screaming bloody murder about something that is very clearly designed in a way as to adhere to the principles of an actual RPG, principles including character development, stat-building, skill/ability acquisition, etc.

I've been disregarding your main point (that unlocking defeats serious competition) because in the context of Guild Wars...that main point is irrelevant. It doesn't even have bearing here. You've been repeating this mantra of "unlocking is inappropriate for competitive play," and in any other game genre, I'd be more inclined to agree with you. But not in this genre.

We've long ago identified that. There's no question about what the system does, nor is there any question of how it slaps the face of competitive gaming of any tyoe for those that want to play a purely skillful vs. game with no gear favortisim to the top hoop jumpers who put in 100+ extra hours than you. 100+ hours developing your personal abilities, techniques and strategy is a good thing; 100+ hours pleasing the "man" so he can toss you a couple of elites you need to compete equally is NOT good.

The point of the discussion here is that the more they force competition into grinding endurance exercises (as it pertains to access to gear), the worse off PvP becomes as a serious competitive activity. You can not have it both ways. There is no perfect middle that you seem to insist is there. The reason why NO serious competitive activity or sport does this nonsense is because it is the antithesis of pure skillful play. THAT is what competition is about.

Quote:

And there's a reason for that, one that makes perfect sense:

Guild Wars is an RPG, a video game. Real life sports are real life sports.

You're "made to jump through hoops" in GW because largely, that's what RPGs are: working on a scale to achieve greater abilities and skills.

You created this thread to voice concern. Fine. But the new PvP unlocking system does take skill--in fact, it requires skill--for the player to unlock what they want for PvP. There are variables in play, for sure. Only a fool would deny that. And sometimes, a match just doesn't go your way due to a crappy team, or something as simple as an off-night.

Sometimes the other team may be better equipped--although, with the PvP unlock system, I doubt an opposing team would all be maxxed out...why else would they be playing if they were also trying to unlock items and such? That's now the only point for the competitive arenas, after all. No xp is being granted or anything, only faction points...so...you get the idea.

But sometimes, you do just get outplayed. It does happen...and getting outplayed by better strategies, better organization, etc., is a loss based on skill, and a win in that situation is a win based on skill. Winning and losing in the arenas and GvG is still largely dependent on skill, with a few variables thrown in.

If you can't see the difference between skill as it relates to two opposing sides going toe-to-toe with no influence from the system and the drudgery of pleasing that system so they can toss you the gear you need, I can't help you at all.

However, you tried to define GW PvP at the start of this section. You point out that the escape clause for the way this is set up is due to the catch-all "it's an RPG" comment. First and foremost, they have ALWAYS emphasized that the focus of this game is competiton. I refer you to Arena.net's own Game Synopsis page:

Quote:

The game is designed to reward player skill and teamwork, not time spent playing...

WHY are we playing hundreds of hours of goofy PvE mechanics of unlocking just to play with pure skill?!

- If you want RPG as the focus, it has it's game flow... exploration, steady progression towards a goal, unlocking, and tangible rewards at the END. That is PvE.

- If you want COMPETITION as the focus, it has IT'S game flow.... setting up with appropriate gear at the START, review and fine tuning of strategy, on field execution of tactics and abilities, with the goal of out playing your opponents. That is PvP.

This problem exists in GW PvP because what PvE offers at the end of a goal is available in all competitive contests at the very start. You seem to feel there is a comfortable melding of the two vastly different play mechanics. But when you take the mechanics of one and squeeze it into the other, it will always be an uncomfortable fit. Sure, you can attempt it, but it diminishes the playability and quality of the side being forced to submit to the style of the other.

What have we been seeing in these drastic update changes in recent weeks? It is Arena.net's slow recognition and attempt to fix a BROXEN SYSTEM. Not broke as in unplayable, but broke as in frustrating their otherwise excited players who wish to play the style they wish to play. If it's so perfect of a system, how come the rush to overhaul it every week?

Lastly, you answer a question of mine please. I say it is a square peg in a round hole everytime they force PvE mechanics (i.e. slow unlocking) into PvP. I loved PvE for what it was, but I can't stand how it infects the fun and freedom a lot of us want for PvP. My question to you is, how would you feel if it were reversed? What if the game emphasized shoehorning the PvP game into the pure enjoyment of PvE?

Examples... What if we did have a purely skill based PvP system as we are asking for. Full UAS/UAR from the second you install (like EVERY other game, sport, competitive contest, etc.). We can have all our fun and concentrate on strategy and tactics for hours on end.

But some people want to play PvE. Well to leave Pre-Ascalon, you have to win 100 Arena matches. Ready to go to the next town? Win another 50 arena matches please. Do you have to unlock skills along the way? Of course not, we're forcing competitive play mechanics on you whether you like it or not. ALL skills are unlocked from the start except elites... you have to hold Hall of Heroes for 10 straight games to get an elite.

You will be FORCED to slowly for through PvE under the uncomfortable fit of a competitive play mechanic system. People who love PvE fuss at us complainers because they can play their game the way it is meant to be played. It IS called a COMPETITIVE online RPG, right? Then why can PvE people play with NO PvP influence on their side, but pure PvP players have to jump therough hundreds of hours of friggin' PvE style hoops just to start with the right gear?!

Tuna · Jul 03, 2005, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Hair

PvP people need to get their head out of their asses and stop complaining. You can get a character from lvl 1 to lvl 20 and cap all the elites over the friggin weekend.

I call bullshit. I have found that it takes roughly 50-60 hours to complete a character. (unlocking all skills) But you are more than free to create a log of your own efforts to prove me wrong.

PieXags · Jul 03, 2005, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Here's an idea.

Quit talking about PvE and PvP like they're supposed to be seperate.

The two are supposed to be intertwined.

And they are.

The devs want people to enjoy their game, not half of their game, they want them to enjoy all of it. Most of us like both PvE and PvP, most of us like the new system, and it keeps it fair for the majority of the community. Those who enjoy PvP, and PvE.

If you want PvP to be seperate (it never will be), this isn't your game.

JMadisonIV · Jul 03, 2005, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Hi. I'm a noob.

I've got some Simple, Common Sense-based Questions:

If they give the "PvPers" the ability to get all their armors and skills instantly without having to earn them or work for them(as seems to be what the PvPers want if I am reading all of this correctly)......can I get my armor and such that way as well, being a "normal" player? Why should I have to work for my levels, and armor, and weapons, and spells if they don't have to?

why should a PvPer get everything so much easier than the rest of us? I paid my 50 bucks just like they did. What makes them so much more deserving?

arredondo · Jul 03, 2005, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

Here's an idea.

Quit talking about PvE and PvP like they're supposed to be seperate.

The two are supposed to be intertwined.

It's always going to be a poor fit unless they make the right changes. Each play mechanic has its own game flow, each has its own purpose. In this game, PvE exists without any forced PvP play mechanics. Unfortunately, even with the continual changes to PvP it is still infected with too much PvE play mechanics. What if it were reversed?

It need not be this way at all.

PieXags · Jul 03, 2005, 02:54 AM // 02:54

For the record, PvE players have to go through one PvP battle before post-searing, it's mandatory.

And secondly, PvP players only have to go through PvE once right? Well when you get done with PvE...all that's left is PvP which is why most all PvE players turn to do some PvP as well in the end.

arredondo · Jul 03, 2005, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMadisonIV

Hi. I'm a noob.

I've got some Simple, Common Sense-based Questions:

If they give the "PvPers" the ability to get all their armors and skills instantly without having to earn them or work for them(as seems to be what the PvPers want if I am reading all of this correctly)......can I get my armor and such that way as well, being a "normal" player? Why should I have to work for my levels, and armor, and weapons, and spells if they don't have to?

why should a PvPer get everything so much easier than the rest of us? I paid my 50 bucks just like they did. What makes them so much more deserving?

"Earning" stuff is a PvE play mechanic and does not belong in the PvP side. The point of competition is to equip with whatever is accessable to all, plan, execute, win... NOT unlocking games from PvE. Do you complain that PvE players don't have to show competitive skill if they choose to ignore PvP altogether? Should they be forced into 1,000 PvP matches over the course of their adventure?

Stop favoring one and make it balanced. Force PvE into hundreds of PvP hours to finish the game, or stop forcing PvP players to goof off with PvE play mechanics.

Choose one or the other... don't be a hypocrite. Oh, you like it as it is, favoring PvE mechanics. Good for you.

PieXags · Jul 03, 2005, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Do you read what you type?

PvP players have to go through PvE ONCE, for the soul purpose of finding the locations of the priests, you can do this in less than a day. Big friggin' deal. The rest is all PvP for you.

arredondo · Jul 03, 2005, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

Do you read what you type?

PvP players have to go through PvE ONCE, for the soul purpose of finding the locations of the priests, you can do this in less than a day. Big friggin' deal. The rest is all PvP for you.

How many times do PvE players have to go through PvP? 1 time? 5 minutes, win or lose? Why is it wrong to complain about being forced to do one thing (PvP'ers who want no PvE), but the other side can comfortably play THEIR way (PvE can ignore all PvP)?

PvE once is 100 hours. PvP once is five minutes. Yeah, it's all intertwined all right.

PieXags · Jul 03, 2005, 03:01 AM // 03:01

You're forgetting an earlier comment of mine.

Most people enjoy BOTH PvP and PvE.

And do you think the PvE experience lasts forever? Hardly. It's repetitive after a while until the next chapter, so most PvE players go to do some PvP after they've completed PvE anyway.

My point?

Most people play PvE, and then also like to play some PvP.

And that's the way it was created to be, with the two sides intertwined and fun for the majority of the players.

And also.

You don't need NEAR 100 hours to get to the last priest.

JMadisonIV · Jul 03, 2005, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

"Earning" stuff is a PvE play mechanic and does not belong in the PvP side. The point of competition is to equip with whatever is accessable to all, plan, execute, win... NOT unlocking games from PvE. Do you complain that PvE players don't have to show competitive skill if they choose to ignore PvP altogether? Should they be forced into 1,000 PvP matches over the course of their adventure?

Stop favoring one and make it balanced. Force PvE into hundreds of PvP hours to finish the game, or stop forcing PvP players to goof off with PvE play mechanics.

Choose one or the other... don't be a hypocrite. Oh, you like it as it is, favoring PvE mechanics. Good for you.

I don't much care either way. I just don't see what makes you so special and deserving that you should have everything handed to you, while me, who is going to play the PVE game, and THEN PvP, has to work for it.

when you get your skills, and armor, and levels(oh, you already do), and spells handed to you for free instantly, and never have to work for it, I want mine given to me as well. It's only fair.

Tuna · Jul 03, 2005, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMadisonIV

Hi. I'm a noob.

I've got some Simple, Common Sense-based Questions:

If they give the "PvPers" the ability to get all their armors and skills instantly without having to earn them or work for them(as seems to be what the PvPers want if I am reading all of this correctly)......can I get my armor and such that way as well, being a "normal" player? Why should I have to work for my levels, and armor, and weapons,

They get this stuff now anyway.

Quote:

and spells if they don't have to?

Welcome to the biggest debate on the forums. Problem is PvPers don't want to slave away for 600 hours to unlock all the skills and PvEers don't want to be at a disadvantage in PvP. However, its also important to realise that a high-end PvPer will have more stuff unlocked than everyone else, giving them an advantage anyway. UAX would only help this situation.

Quote:

why should a PvPer get everything so much easier than the rest of us? I paid my 50 bucks just like they did. What makes them so much more deserving?

Why should a PvPer have to play 600 hours of PvE to enjoy the game. I payed 50 bucks just like they did. What makes them so much more deserving?

JMadisonIV · Jul 03, 2005, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

Why should a PvPer have to play 600 hours of PvE to enjoy the game. I payed 50 bucks just like they did. What makes them so much more deserving?

then I suppose the only feasible solution is to make everyone level 20, give them all their spells and skills, and the absolute highest level armor available from day 1.

everyone.

PVE Characters AND PVP characters.

I'm fine with that.

there's no way that one group of people should have to work for stuff while another group of people has everything handed to them for free. period.

I don't give a crap about "competitive play" or "pve play" or any of that.

bottom line, right now, both groups of people have to work for their stuff.

one group is complaining because they don't want to have to work for their stuff, and they want it given to them for free.

and that is wrong.

arredondo · Jul 03, 2005, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

You're forgetting an earlier comment of mine.

Most people enjoy BOTH PvP and PvE.

And do you think the PvE experience lasts forever? Hardly. It's repetitive after a while until the next chapter, so most PvE players go to do some PvP after they've completed PvE anyway.

My point?

Most people play PvE, and then also like to play some PvP.

And that's the way it was created to be, with the two sides intertwined and fun for the majority of the players.

And also.

You don't need NEAR 100 hours to get to the last priest.

I enjoy both modes. It has no bearing on this conversation. If I want to play pure PvE for a week, its all good. If I want to play pure PvP for a day, I am forced into all kinds of PvE play mechanics. THIS is the splinter sticking in the paw. If it wasn't a problem, why does Arena.net address this very issue EVERY...SINGLE...UPDATE?

It's because the balance is way off. You can enjoy both modes, but let's enjoy them for what they each offer. If I want hunting, unlocking and all that stuff, I play PvE. If I want fierce competition with no influence from the system's PvE play mechanics influencing the outcome, I should get that in PvP.

You continue to ignore the obvious... why not impose the same standard on pure PvE enjoyment? How about being forced into hundreds of hours of PvP play mechanics (competitive victories to progress) before you finished the PvE adventure?

PieXags · Jul 03, 2005, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

They get this stuff now anyway.

Welcome to the biggest debate on the forums. Problem is PvPers don't want to slave away for 600 hours to unlock all the skills and PvEers don't want to be at a disadvantage in PvP. However, its also important to realise that a high-end PvPer will have more stuff unlocked than everyone else, giving them an advantage anyway. UAX would only help this situation.

Why should a PvPer have to play 600 hours of PvE to enjoy the game. I payed 50 bucks just like they did. What makes them so much more deserving?

A PvPer doesn't have to play near 600 hours of PvE, what the hell are you talking about? The only reason PvE is now necessary is to find the priests in the towns. Other than that, you don't need to do anything else, no quests to unlock your skills, no grinding for runes, just finding the priests, you can do it in a day.

And to the...

"
Problem is PvPers don't want to slave away for 600 hours to unlock all the skills and PvEers don't want to be at a disadvantage in PvP."

The problem is the last part.

They aren't "PvEers" if they ALSO play PvP. Which is exactly my point! PvE and PvP are SUPPOSED to both be played, those who play PvE and PvP are the ones who this system was made for, and that's how it's going to be.

It is my belief that the dev's won't ever implement a UAX for the PvP players simply because they don't want people to only play half their game, they want people to play all of their game, that's how it was made.

JMadisonIV · Jul 03, 2005, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

You continue to ignore the obvious... why not impose the same standard on pure PvE enjoyment? How about being forced into hundreds of hours of PvP play mechanics (competitive victories to progress) before you finished the PvE adventure?

I don't see how that makes your point.

we already have to grind and work for what we want. this "solution" of yours won't change anything. we'll still have to work for it.

you want your stuff handed to you. I don't see how forcing us to PvP, is going to validate you having everything handed to you.

arredondo · Jul 03, 2005, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Your unlocking scenario ignores the obvious... PvP is STILL infected with PvE play mechanics (adventure to all areas to find priests, unlock items with faction, etc.). PvE players don't have to do ANY PvP play mechanics but once (competitively win hundreds of matches to progress).

You may like it, but at least acknowledge it for what it is. "Earning" objects is a PvE play mechanic. Winning victories against human competition is a PvP play mechanic. PvP is forced into hours and hours of PvE... PvE can gnore all PvP except once if they wish. How can you even try and call that fair?

Siran Dunmorgan · Jul 03, 2005, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Why not impose the same standard on pure PvE enjoyment? How about being forced into hundreds of hours of PvP play mechanics (competitive victories to progress) before you finished the PvE adventure?

I'm all in favor of that, actually... It's rather more like what I expected the game to be when ArenaNet first described it: a series of actual Guild Wars.

—Siran Dunmorgan

arredondo · Jul 03, 2005, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMadisonIV

I don't see how that makes your point.

we already have to grind and work for what we want. this "solution" of yours won't change anything. we'll still have to work for it.

you want your stuff handed to you. I don't see how forcing us to PvP, is going to validate you having everything handed to you.

The "work" in any competitive contest EXCEPT GW PvP is to out play and out think your opponent, period.

- You don't have to "earn" a good tennis racket from the Tennis Association by winning 1,000 matches just to compete on the same level as your opponent.

- You don't have to "earn" your bishops from the Chess Association by winning a 1,000 matches just to compete on the same level as your opponent.

Competition is not about "earning" your equipment needed from the "league" just to compete against those they have what you don't. Everyone has access to what is allowed without doing some hoop jumping for the league first. Only in Guild Wars PvP is this serious problem in place. Before you respond to this, read the earlier pages on this very point because I'm not commenting on it again.